7th October 2000

Note: This log file has been edited to remove all joins and parts which make the chat difficult to follow, off-topic discussion before the chat officially started has been trimmed to save space.

Larry Niven's posts have been highlighted in bold to make them stand out from the rest of the chat log.

Larry was a little late in joining the chat - to skip down to his entrance click here.

Session Start: Sat Oct 07 17:53:04 2000

*** Now talking in #KNOWNSPACE

*** Topic is 'Ringworld 30th Anniversary Chat - tonight at 9.00 GMT'

*** Set by K9 on Sat Oct 07 19:08:03

-K9- Welcome fellow larryniven-l members to the Known Space IRC Channel. Tonight it is proud to host a chat dedicated to the 30th Anniversary of the publication of Ringworld by Larry Niven.

-K9- This will be an unmoderated chat and we request that chatters stay on topic as defined by our GOH (Guest of Honor), Larry Niven. Swearing and verbal abuse WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

<Redflame> hello!

<Vash> oh, I have visitors

<Vash> been otherwise occupied in another window

<Redflame> :-)

<vxpmrz3> Oh fudge, and I had planned to swear like a sailor.

<HarryRedd> Hi Vash

<Vash> hi harry

<HarryRedd> How's it going Vash?

<Vash> ok

<Vash> how about you

<HarryRedd> That's good... All set up for this afternoon?

<Vash> evening for me, but yes

<Vash> I wonder how many people will come?

<HarryRedd> I think more than a few... It IS the 30th anniversary after all. /:-)

<HarryRedd> You're in GB I take it?

<Vash> many people on the list only have access to it at work, and this is the weekend

<Vash> yes

<HarryRedd> Hi DJANGO. /:-)

<django> afternoon all & happy thanksgiving

<django> I think I may be having connection problems - brb

<HarryRedd> The only thing I give thanks for today is that I got my check today and that I'm not getting the amount of "GOVERNMENT" I'm paying for! /:-)

* django waggles some wires

<HarryRedd> You going to be here for a while Vash?

<Vash> yes

<django> I have been a bad boy - I started re-reading Ringworld for today, but then I finally got footfall & read that instead :-(

<django> is anyone there?

<Vash> yep

<Vash> but chat won't start for just under an hour and a half

*** Vash is now known as Nesssus

<HarryRedd> Hey Nessus! I just finished filling out my LOSCON Info for running a panel there

<Nesssus> a convention?

<HarryRedd> yes. LOSangels (Reagonal) science fiction CONvention. A yearly event run by the LASFAS... THIS world's oldest (exhisting) Science Fiction Club. /:-)

<HarryRedd> Hi Nessus Do you know the name Leslie Fish?

<Nesssus> Banned from Argo?

<HarryRedd> YES! Would you like to say hello to her?

<Nesssus> is she with you?

<HarryRedd> Yes Here she is!

<Nesssus> hi Leslie

<HarryRedd> Hello, out there. (And DON'T mention "Banned From Argo" to me :-)\

<Nesssus> how are you doing?

<HarryRedd> -- ask eagerly when the book will see print. I told them in my cover letter that the book was based on a notorious filk song, and that I could guarantee several thousand sales on the title alone, but I don't think they believed me.

<Nesssus> :-)

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, edison!

<edison> Hiya.

<edison> I'm early, but I won't be able to stay for the real chat.

<Nesssus> it starts in about 45 mins

<edison> Last-minute schedule conflict. Really too bad, I was looking forward to this.

<edison> I even re-read RW in preparation.

<HarryRedd> Hi, Edison. This is Leslie Fish <;)))><, using Harry Redd's computer.

<Nesssus> I started reading it tonight, but only got as far as chapter two

<edison> ...and his motley crew!

<edison> Hi Leslie.

<edison> Here's what I would want to ask Larry if I were here:

<edison> Your readers have noticed a shift in your writing style; in the focus of the stories, the characters, the themes and plots.

<HarryRedd> Harry Here... Hi Edison.

<edison> Have *you* noticed that change? And what do you think of it?

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Leviathan!

<Redflame> Hey! Everyone wants to come early!

<edison> Could somebody find a way to ask that for me? I expect there'll be a transcript posted to the list...

<Nesssus> if there's time edison I'll ask the question for you

<edison> thanks

<HarryRedd> Edison, I w3as away from most SF for about 10 years...BOY did I notice the change when I got Larry's new stuff!

<edison> Yeah, it's not exactly subtle. There's a new miracle on almost every page of RW, but DR is a whole different animal.

<edison> I'm not passing judgement of "better" or "worse," but you can't deny "different."

<Leviathan> I think there's an awful lot more character depth in DR and RWT myself.

<Redflame> Yes, and character depth is important.

<edison> Yes, the new work is much more character-driven, less tech- and action- and puzzle-driven.

<Leviathan> I agree. I think they're much more "mature" than "Ringworld" is.

<Redflame> He still has lots of puzzles in, mostly in the form of trying to figure out what the characters are thinking by looking at their actions.

<edison> Bey and Louis are tourists, and as readers we're along for the ride. Jemmy isn't.

<Leviathan> But that maturity seems gained at the cost of a lot of good old-fashioned "Gosh-Wow! That's NEAT!" and I miss that.

<Redflame> Jemmy is a fugitive!

<HarryRedd> Hi, Redflame: this is Leslie again. How're you doing?

<edison> I agree that Larry leaves his characters' motivations and actions as a puzzle for the reader sometimes. I find it occasionally irritating.

<edison> Especially some of the high-action scenes in RWT, where Louis says, "Did you notice..." and then blacks out.

<Redflame> Leslie? Hi! I'm great! You?

<edison> Also, since Larry's been on the list, I've noticed that he's impatient with readers who don't "get it," who need to have something explained to them.

<HarryRedd> HR-- Larry doesn't tell you ALL about motivation early... He lets things develop and reveal themselves as the Characte4r grows.

<Leviathan> I have a sense that Larry on the list tries very hard to keep his answers short. That can come off as impatience, but it may be more to do with discipline and time-management.

<HarryRedd> (Leslie) Hi, Redflame. Did you catch my twenty-lines-earlier post about the novelisation of "Banned From Argo"? That's what I've been up to!

<Leviathan> . o O (That's what I get for joining late!)

<Redflame> Leslie, I got to hear a couple of your songs recently, in a storytelling concert by Fran Stallings, on the subject of "Ancient Roots of Science Fiction and Fantasy" She identified lots of stories whose beginnings are lost in time, that have the same themes as modern SF&F, way way back beyond Frankenstein. She finished with "Pile High" And the one about poisoning the thugs with the feast food.

<Redflame> Leslie, no, missed that. Nesssus and I will have to trade caches of the chat if we want to post all this to the list. Someone re post that? That "Banned" book sounds very interesting. The first time I heard that song, you sang it for me at Larry Niven's request!

<Redflame> Larry's style of writing: I don't' like having to guess thoughts from actions. I personally have been accused of rather vile thoughts based on misinterpretations of actions, and I'd like to think I don't do that to other people, even characters.

<HarryRedd> (Leslie) Fran Stallings?! I haven't seen/talked to her in a coon's age. Yes, that 'Pile High' song (actual title: "The Digwell Carol") and the poisoned-feast song (actual title: "Rhododendron Honey") came off my album, FIRESTORM -- soon to be reissued -- which was a collection of just-pre-and-post-holocaust songs.

<Redflame> posting transcripts: Do we want all this pre-chat pre-Larry chat posted with the rest of the transcript?

<Nesssus> no - I think we should start at the moment he joins

<Redflame> Ok.

<edison> I'm not sure I agree.

<Leviathan> On the other hand, RedFlame, unless you're a telepath, you _don't_ know what the people around you are thinking. It's inherently unrealistic to give you an inside view of a character's head. Outside of the "POV" character, it's often thought of as good to write descriptions of characters' actions that delineate their thoughts, rather than just say 'Louis thought, "That Teela's hot!"'

<edison> There's something about the pre-chat chatter that adds flavor to a transcript.

<HarryRedd> (Leslie) As for how ancient their roots were, well, I've done my share of reading ancient history, but I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote the songs. They were mostly based on strat-and-tac ideas, and basic strat-and-tac hasn't changed that much since our ancestors battled with flint-tipped spears.

<Redflame> Leslie, Fran Stallings is from, or at least lives, in my hometown. She was the first person that my mother and I had in common as a friend!

<Nesssus> what is strat and tac?

<Redflame> Leslie, I can't remember how she wove those songs into her narrative, but it was a pleasant surprise. I was hopping that she was going to sell a video tape of the performance, but she didn't'. <sigh>

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, krenon!

<Nesssus> strategy and tactics?

<edison> About explaining a character's thoughts: imagine reading RW without "hearing" Louis' thoughts about starseed lures and shenanigans on the Fertility Board. It would be chaos!

<edison> But the characters talk it over among themselves, which is another literary device to clue players in to something.

<edison> In a story you sometimes have to invent a character just so the hero has somebody to explain his plan to.

<Redflame> An omniscient narrator should have some idea of what characters are thinking when the actions of that character are being described. And at least, the main character should have feelings described.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, bjcooper!

<bjcooper> Hi Nessus! Hey, this was easier than I thought!

<krenon> Hi Brenda

<Nesssus> r u on MIRC?

<bjcooper> That java thing that Carol mentioned in her note on the list. I don't chat much!

<Leviathan> Edison, I used to be in love with characters created to explain things to. Their names were Jo Grant, and Sarah Jane Smith, and Ace.

<Nesssus> Ace Rimmer ? <g>

<HarryRedd> Strategy and Tactics

<krenon> You mean that all he ever did was explain things to them?

<edison> Sorry, I don't recognize any of those characters. (Exposed as a dillitante at last!)

<HarryRedd> Strategy and Tactics

<Leviathan> I still get a little excited hearing a woman with an English accent say "What IS it, Doctor?!?!?"

<krenon> No He means Dr Who's women

<edison> Oh, right. And Perry, the fake American.

<HarryRedd> Am I still here?

<krenon> Jon, who is Lalla Ward married to?

<Nesssus> not any more Harry

<Nesssus> oh yes, you're back!

<krenon> He'll return

<edison> Harry, are you receiving?

<Leviathan> No longer Tom Baker. She's married to (I think) A lawyer, and she currently writes Childern's boks.

<HarryRedd> Receiving but not seeing my posts

<Nesssus> [HarryRedd PING reply]: 0 seconds

<HarryRedd> Now I am...

<Nesssus> you aren't lagged

<HarryRedd> Thank you nessus.

<HarryRedd> I lost the previous stuff when I reset mIRC (S*XIX*G*H)

<HarryRedd> Tom Baker seems to have gone through several wives.

<Nesssus> Tom Baker lives in Harrietsham just outside Maidstone, a woman I used to work with used to see him all the time in her nearest Tescos :-)

<Leviathan> Makes him sound like a James Bond villain: "He consume women in large quantities."

<Leviathan> Wonderfully talented man. I was watching "Talons of Weng-Chiang" just last night on video.

<HarryRedd> no Leviathan, Just insecure and hard to live with apparently

<Leviathan> Oh, he's an actor!

* Leviathan revels in his own sarcasm...

<krenon> I'd heard she was married to some well known person who writes popular science stuff.

<krenon> I'd heard she was married to some well known guy who writes popular science stuff.

<HarryRedd> I saw Albert Finny and Roddy McDowle in THE DRESSER last night. It's the first time I've actually seen Roddy ACT!

<HarryRedd> Who is the lady in Question?

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, tonid!

<Leviathan> My memory is fuzzy whee Ms. Ward is concerned. You're likely quite correct.

<krenon> That's better

<HarryRedd> WB Krenon

<Nesssus> problems?

<django> hi all

<krenon> Yes.

<Redflame> Getting crowded here!

<tonid> a new subscriber says hi ;)

<Nesssus> wb django

<django> good grief - a crowd!

<HarryRedd> Hi Django. Not crowded Red just busy. /:-)

<krenon> x

<Leviathan> . o O (WB? Warner Bros?)

<Nesssus> 10 isn't a crowd

<HarryRedd> Welcome Back Nessus. /:-)

<krenon> She meant welcome back

<Leviathan> Nesssus it is in my bathroom.

<Nesssus> chat talk is full of acronyms

<krenon> Re Lalla Ward: I thought she was married to some guy who wrote popular science books

<Leviathan> IKWYM

<bjcooper> Whether or not 10 is a crowd depends on for what!

<django> ROFL

<Nesssus> no that's a WC Levi

<Redflame> IKWYM?

<tonid> <everybody> o hello tonid nice to see a new subscriber ;>>>>

<krenon> I know what you mean

<HarryRedd> Hi TONID

<tonid> long time since I've been talking to myself ;>

<edison> well, I'll make the crowd smaller, I have to go. Sorry I can

<Nesssus> bbl just resetting the connection

<edison> not stay for Niven

<Leviathan> Why, Hello, Toni D. Nice to meet you.

<Redflame> Tonid, YOU are a new subscriber?

<tonid> no no I'm not Toni and my last name is not D ;)

<Leviathan> Fare thee well, Edison.

<edison> Oh, actually, I think I'll keep my client online and read the transcript later.

<HarryRedd> Adios Edison. Have a good one.

<edison> How do I change my handle to "edison - AFK"?

<tonid> I'm tonid - a complete tonid ;)

<Leviathan> Well, I tried.

<tonid> hehe thx Lev ;> My real name is Tomasz ;)

Good job Leviathon.\

<edisonAFK> Have a good chat, all. Bye.

<Leviathan> I like it! Where from, if I may ask?

<django> ttfn edison

<krenon> test

<tonid> Leviathan: the domain says it all ;)

<tonid> Leviathan: but to make it easier... Poland :)

<tonid> Redflame: why surprised that I am a new subscriber? ;)

<krenon> test

<Leviathan> You pass, krenon!

<krenon> I keep dropping off with no clear message

<Redflame> tonid, not surprise, but I can't always tell who people are when their handles are not the email addresses are not their names. It is hard to remember three of more names for each person.

<tonid> with a D minus, but pass ;>

<HarryRedd> tonid, do you know the song THE EAGLE HAS LANDED?

<krenon> Hope Eyrie

<tonid> Redflame: my email address is tonid@tonid.com.pl ;)))

<HarryRedd> Thank you krenon

<tonid> HarryRedd: don't think so ;)

<Leviathan> changing boxes? Or chat clients?

<Redflame> What country are you in, with that pl?

<tonid> Redflame: as I said to Lev already, Poland :)

<HarryRedd> It was adopted by SOLIDARITY many years back. Leslie Fish who wrote it was chatting here a few minutes ago.

<krenon> I don't blame them

<bjcooper> Hey - she's GOOD -- Leslie was at Worldcon, right?

<tonid> HarryRedd: hehe :) I was never involved in politics much, but I'm going to vote tomorrow for the president ;)

<Leviathan> Nice change of pace from a few years back, isn't it?

<HarryRedd> Good for you tonid. If you don't vote, you are telling the powers that be that you are totally satisfied with the way things are running. I am NEVER satisfied with the way ANY government runs things. /:-)

<tonid> but - to get onto the correct topic - has anyone seen a comprehensive guide to aliens of the Known Space on the Net? :) I'm working on something like that and I hope I'm not re-doing something already done ;)

<tonid> HarryRedd: hehe ;))

<django> was someone talking about Dr Who a few minutes ago?

<krenon> Yes

<Leviathan> That's me, django!

<Nesssus> well Tom Baker

<krenon> Also Lalla Ward

<django> gotcha - just saw Lalla Ward mentioned and it took a minute for it to click

<Leviathan> And other women who say "What IS it, Doctor???"

<django> and scream - don't forget they have to scream

<Leviathan> And then there's that whole ankle thang...

<krenon> Ankle?

<Nesssus> Django - that makes them sound like they're acting in a horror film, not a Dr Who episode

<django> don't you just love pathos

* tonid is feeling a bit left out but guesses it's normal first time on a new channel ;>

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, CoolNess!

<Nesssus> Women always fall down and twist they're ankles in chase scenes in films

<Leviathan> The Doctor's young female assistants tended to fall down and twist their ankles while running away from monsters.

<Leviathan> Nesssus wins!

<Nesssus> I didn't know it was a race

*** CoolNess is now known as TheARM

<mikeash> even better

<Leviathan> We'd better watch our step now!

<Nesssus> let me introduce my other half (coolness aka theARM) who's here to make sure everyone behaves

<django> I just hope nothing gets suppressed

<krenon> Hi coughalot

<Nesssus> lol

<Redflame> django, you are afraid of suppression?

<Leviathan> I've been taking my drugs!

<mikeash> help! help! I'm being suppressed!

<bjcooper> I don't think this group is very suppressable!

<TheARM> Da boyz from da hood will sort out all of dose boyz who don't do right, know what I mean

<TheARM> harry

<django> where's 'arry?

<Leviathan> Is he down in the engine room, sacrificing himself again?

<HarryRedd> Right here. I was just answering E-Mail

<HarryRedd> Actually, I was out on the periphery connecting Attitude Jets when that unpleasantness happened.

<bjcooper> That sounds better!

<Leviathan> Been awhile since I read that.

<HarryRedd> -K-

<django> Redflame: never fear suppression - not had any dangerous ideas lately

<HarryRedd> It's still a good read.

<HarryRedd> Truly Django

<bjcooper> Oh, and tonid, it's usual -- all the Dr. Who stuff went right over my head!

<Leviathan> Indeed. I'm in the middle of a James Bond kick right now, though, and hope to maintain it till I finish a fanfic.

<tonid> would you people mind if I introduced myself in a short burst ? ;)))

<bjcooper> Please do!

<HarryRedd> Go for it Tonid, It will save me from asking some questions and prompt others. /;-)

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Treehugge!

<django> hi treehugger

<HarryRedd> Hi TREE Good to see you!

<Treehugge> Hi people!

<Nesssus> Shall we start working through the discussion questions?

<Treehugge> Hey harry, you too.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Bill!

<django> hi bill

<Bill> Hi Carol

<krenon> THE bill?

<HarryRedd> Sure Nessus. WOOz vs RW?

<Leviathan> . o O (The cat????)

<Bill> Hi ALL

<Redflame> Discussion questions: my first one is where is Larry?

<HarryRedd> TRULY Red.

<krenon> The hard ones first :-)

<Redflame> Hi Bill

<Nesssus> must be caught in a flash crowd somewhere

<Bill> Hi

<HarryRedd> Hello Bill, Welcome.

<Bill> Hi Harry

<krenon> There's dedication. How's Perth at 4 am Bill?

<Redflame> Finishing lunch would be my bet!

<Treehugge> 4AM, ouch

<Bill> a little tired this morning

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Deoin!

<tonid> ... and planning to complete the Man-Kzin Wars series (I only have the first two). I lost Neutron Star some years ago and can't buy it anywhere now since it's out of print :(

<Treehugge> or finishing breakfast!

<Nesssus> Krenon: very bleary-eyed

<Bill> got two cups of tea in front of me

<tonid> ouff that was a burst ;)

<bjcooper> I'm impressed by 4 AM -- that's dedication

<HarryRedd> Good Grief PERTH ar 4 Am? That must be like Salt Lake City on a Sunday Morning!

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, SteveS!

<krenon> There are plenty of copies of Neutron Star going second hand in Australia

<SteveS> Hello!

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, zem!

<zem> 'lo all :)

<TheARM> hi zem

<Redflame> I'd do 4 am to talk to Larry. But then if one is the organizer, one gets to set the time at a convenient time!

<Leviathan> Hi-ho!

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Bill1!

<django> tonid: I know the feeling - 2 copies of neutron star both went walkies & now I can't find another :-(

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Akatsukam!

<SteveS> D'oh!

<tonid> krenon: not in Poland :( I have only 2 bookstores in Poland that sell foreign books and none of them have Neutron Star (they don't carry second hand books) and I can't find any on the net either...

<Treehugge> popular book, eh?

<krenon> Bummer.

<Akatsukam> Thanx, Nesssus. Appropriate TOD, all.

<Leviathan> tonid do currency issues prevent you from using foreign bookstores over the net?

<Redflame> Can't find them on the net? Have you looked on ABE BOOKS? Highly recommend that one. They even have a copy of that one edition, of RW? that only has 26 of them singed and numbered.

<tonid> Treehugge: I regard it as one of the best, great selection of stories. Luckily some of the stories are also in Crashlander but for example I don't have "The Handicapped" anywhere else...

<Leviathan> If not, I recommend http://www.bibliofind.com

<krenon> Neither Amazon nor B&N? How about watching Ebay auctions?

<HarryRedd> Sounds like you've got a Market Krenon. Buy up all you can and post them as available on your Website. /:-) Say $10 US each = Shipping?

<Redflame> really abebooks is your best bet.

<tonid> Leviathan: not all stores accept credit cards and I'm reluctant to use cards for smaller stores (I only buy in amazon...) after the e-universe affair...

<Redflame> hey, I just found a very fine first edition of Protector for 65c. Well worth the investment!

<bjcooper> Amazon has it listed as both oop and on order -- so maybe its being reprinted?

<tonid> krenon: can't buy on ebay - their card system does not accept cards from Poland yet and I have no international money orders available here...

<krenon> Oh.

<Leviathan> /msg tonid I've had good luck finding and buying via credit card from the small bookstores I've found through bibliofind. Never a problem for me.

<Redflame> Ok, none of you are Larry Niven in disguise are you?

<Leviathan> d'oh!

<TheARM> me, me!!

<tonid> I didn't try B&N yet, they're big - should be safe...

<Treehugge> no, me

<HarryRedd> TONID Check for an AMERICAN EXPRESS agent. I know there's one in Warsaw

<TheARM> its me I tell you!

<Akatsukam> I'm not, my name as my word :)

<SteveS> Not me.

<Treehugge> B&N are very god and very safe.

<django> I'm Larry Niven and so's my wife!

<Treehugge> oops!

<Redflame> Right, I believe that ARM.

<tonid> HarryRedd: American Express might have international money orders?

<Treehugge> Freudian slip, there...!

<HarryRedd> I'm just Harry Redd. /:-)

<SteveS> That's good enough for us. :-)

<krenon> Funny if he was lurking there and wouldn't tell us.

<HarryRedd> They are SURE TO TONID. American Express Money Orders are accepted in Zambia and China.

<Leviathan> Somebody mention gun control, and see who exits chat.

<tonid> also buying from stores in the US is a pain... the delivery time approaches 2 months while books from the UK come in 2 days!!!

<tonid> HarryRedd: I'll ask, thx :)

<krenon> Well you just did and I'm watching.

<HarryRedd> NO COMMENT Leviathan

* django never mentioned gun control - honest

<bjcooper> Did I miss something?

* Leviathan is evil, but will now shut up.

<Leviathan> ...for a moment, at least.

<HarryRedd> Hi Kees

<kees> hello HarryRed

* django apologized about the gun control thread last month

<Akatsukam> We accept, django...provisionally :)

* django is hiding under his keyboard

<SteveS> I got about halfway through re-reading RW before the chat happened.

<Redflame> Thanks for the apology. but anyone who participated is also guilty!

<Treehugge> I don't know if I can buy this Oz/RW comparison completely.

<Leviathan> Sorry!

<Treehugge> But if I did, I'd put Teela as the tin man.

<HarryRedd> Ok GUILTY as Charged, However I have gone shooting with Larry and Jerry.

<krenon> What did you shoot?

<Treehugge> shooting with or at...? :)~

<SteveS> <chuckle>

<Nesssus> Treehug beat me to that pun.....

* django now has beer - returns from under keyboard

<django> oops under

<Treehugge> Okay, we're talking gnus, here.....cut it out before Larry sees us!

<HarryRedd> Targets. /:-) I said WITH. /:-)

<zem> yeah, let's not be shooting off at the mouth

<Akatsukam> I thought the "Oz == Ringworld" matter was supposed to be an unconscious sort of thing?

<Treehugge> You keep the beer under there....? Heck of a keyboard!

<Nesssus> gnus are the targets.....?

<django> GNU??? open source weaponry?

* TheARM wonders if anyone here would like some of his Dr Pepper?

* krenon thinks YUK

<zem> might be that oz tapped into some deeper paradigm :)

<Bill1> not at 4 am thanks

<Akatsukam> "Dr Pepper"? Ick, no thank you.

<Redflame> Larry is having problems finding us

<django> Treehugge: Finest kind ;-)

<HarryRedd> Iced Tea for me. (Wishing I could get some TETLEYS!)

<Treehugge> I don't know if I even buy it as unconscious. It's just a common story type; done before OZ, I wouldn't doubt.

<Treehugge> Everybody wave so Larry can see us!

* Nesssus offers a round of carrot juice to everyone!

<Leviathan> Look, Oz is largely flat, and covered with kangaroos. Ringworld is round covered with hominids. Not much to hang this on...

<Akatsukam> Who then is William Jennings Bryan? :)

<TheARM> The cyber bar is open, orders please

<zem> Ringworld is flat!

* Akatsukam waves vigorously

<django> any archetype is going to remind you of another

<krenon> What's special about Tetleys?

<Treehugge> I've got my caffiene-free diet pepsi and my cookies.

<TheARM> krenon its great Tea, thats what

<krenon> That is not Oz.

*** tonid is now known as Knazol

<Knazol> ;>>>>

<TheARM> Akatsukam, what would you like?

<Knazol> I'm in tonid's body now ;>

<django> Knazol?

<Treehugge> I would like the immortality pills LN mentioned on the list.

<Nesssus> Zem, looks like you're last for orders at the bar:-)

*** Knazol is now known as tonid

<tonid> ;)))

* django wonders if it cures stuffy noses...

<krenon> Is that pronounced nasal?

<HarryRedd> The taste compared to most American brands

<Akatsukam> Nothing for me, thanks. I don't usually consume fluids at this (local) hour.

<Leviathan> It is if you're an American. All I know about Australia I learned watching "QANTAS" commercials.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Tosh!

<tonid> hehe I just realized I've been using the word "bandersnatch" as a password for years ;>

<HarryRedd> Hi TOSH

<Tosh> Hi -

* zem grins

<tonid> no password scanning utility could get that one ;>

<zem> as long as they have irish cofee

<zem> s/f/ff

<Akatsukam> Well, that eliminates guessing by all but Niven fans and Carroll fans. :)

<Leviathan> Unless it was reading this public chat channel.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Gordon!

<Leviathan> If I used that as a password, my SysAdmin would be Frumious!

<krenon> I'll tell you some time about how Oz came to me associated with Australia

<Tosh> Am a bit late - been packing for an early flight to Apachicola tomorrow - anyone from round there?

<Gordon> Evening all!

<TheARM> django, and so went forth the slivery sloth of discontent

<HarryRedd> GHOD I miss Irish Coffee!

<Tosh> Yo Gordon

<tonid> must start using 'vandervecken' now however that'd be too easy to misspell ;>

<Treehugge> *sigh* I can't remember how to do that "action" thing.....little help, please?

<tonid> I might have misspelled it even now ;>

<Treehugge> krenon, I thought it was just the sound...?

<tonid> Treehugge: /me action

<krenon> Is that just a coincidence that Tosh and Gordon came on about the same time?

<kees> /me <text>

<Akatsukam> Frankly, I don't even know where Apachicola is, so probably not.

<Leviathan> "/me {Whatever action you want to do"

<Treehugge> Oh...duh! thanks

<Tosh> Yup -pubs are still open!

* zem thought apachicola was a native American soft drink

<Gordon> LOL zem!

* Akatsukam snorts

<Bill1> LOL

<Redflame> Ok, Larry is on his way here.

* Leviathan smiles and tells Treehugger he's welcome.

<tonid> oh yeah I can't seem to remember - who/what is 'frumious'? :)

<Tosh> It's the "forgotten" part of florida -no disney, just empty beaches. Sorry to be so OT

<Akatsukam> Genus name for the bandersnatch.

<Leviathan> It's the modifier usually used before "Bandersnatch."

*** fithp has joined #KNOWNSPACE

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, fithp!

<django> just after the jubjub bird

<SteveS> Hello, Larry!

<tonid> woow :)

<HarryRedd> TONID You should get a copy of ALICE IN WONDERLAND and THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS by LOUIS CARROLL.

<Gordon> Welcome!

<Leviathan> Lead us, Herdmaster!

* Treehugge waves at Larry

<zem> 'lo larry

<Treehugge> Welcome, Larry!

<tonid> HarryRedd: I read this in college ;))) but forgot all of it...

<HarryRedd> Hi Larry.

<Redflame> Yeah! Hi Larry!

<Bill1> Welcome Larry

* django is not worthy

<tonid> HarryRedd: I even went to a course called "through the looking glass" :)))

<django> hi Larry!

<Tosh> Hi from Scotland Larry

* tonid finished college in Canada

<Akatsukam> Afternoon, Larry.

<krenon> Hi from Australia Larry

<TheARM> TheARm would just like to mention that if it gets too unruly here tonight, I WILL CLAMP DOWN and moderate this channel!

<Treehugge> To your world, welcome!

<tonid> hi from Poland Larry :)

<Gordon> Hey, I'd forgotten Tosh was here in Edinburgh!

<Nesssus> Hello from Merry old England Larry

<Treehugge> Unruly? Us??

<SteveS> Never!

<bjcooper1> Hi - off and back on. Glad you made it Larry

<django> as if

<Akatsukam> Perish the thought, ARM :)

<Treehugge> We will not upset the ARM.

<Tosh> Ted didn't forget, Gordon - Ted forgets nothing

<Gordon> Scary, isn't it?

* Treehugge doesn't want his technology confiscated.

* django is formulating a dangerous idea

<Tosh> Ted did most of the Pak threads? ;-))

* krenon thinks he didn't

<Treehugge> First discussion question, or does Larry have one?

<Redflame> Larry is still having problems getting here. Just a sec.

* krenon awaits with bated breath

<Treehugge> Bummer. Brownies in his computer?

<Tosh> We all do

<Akatsukam> Worms in your mouth, Ted? :)

<Nesssus> lol, I've suffered with toast before

<zem> chocolate brownies?

* zem perks up

<tonid> I found Neutron Star in B&N! :)))

<SteveS> Woo-hoo!

<Akatsukam> Most excellent.

* Treehugge loves B&N.

<krenon> He appears to be trying to communicate but it's not working.

<Leviathan> B&N is deeply cool.

<Gordon> Maybe if we all joined hands?

* Treehugge 's family hates it when he disappears into B&N.

<tonid> he has to re-adjust his maser beam ;)))

<bjcooper1> My family won't let me near one!

<HarryRedd> -k-

<Akatsukam> Not a firewall problem, is it?

<django> Treehugge - you have a book fetish too?

<Nesssus> joining hands are ok, just don't start singing kum-by-ya

<bjcooper1> No porblem here -- I can't sing well!

<Leviathan> how about "Zum gali gali gali?

<HarryRedd> NOT BANNED FROM ARGO AGAIN!

<Tosh> Some filk perhaps?

<Gordon> Books aren't a fetish, they're a necessity

<Akatsukam> We do have some taste, Nesssus.

<Treehugge> Big one, Django. Always got a list of books that are next to read.

<SteveS> A rousing Kzinti war-chant? :-)

<bjcooper1> That's better

<Akatsukam> They chant, rather than just screaming and leaping?

* Treehugge screams and leaps at his screen; hurts his nose.

<SteveS> LOL

<krenon> A scream and leap is a challenge. They do other things

<django> Treehugge - Do you suffer from the one book in each room syndrome or are you single threaded?

<HarryRedd> I think a WONDERLAND war chant would be more singable. /:-)

<Gordon> Bit like the New Zealand rugby team

* tonid chews on his gnal ;>

<django> as long as noone starts on 'gin gan goolie'

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, CarolTLP!

* Treehugge 's family leaving room slowly...

<zem> no, a threat is a challenge :)

<fithp> Found it!

<SteveS> Yes!

<krenon> :-)

<django> :-)

<tonid> HarryRedd: ))))

<Nesssus> The first discussion question is, how old was everyone when they first read Ringworld and how many repeat readings has your copy had ......

<Leviathan> Lead us, Herdmaster!

<fithp> Hello, everyone. Sorry I'm late. That was NOT intuitive. Thanks for the help. Carol.

<Treehugge> Original copy long gone. Been through 3 or 4.

<mikeash> I think I was about 12, I've re-read it maybe two or three times, and I don't have a copy :(

<Redflame> You are supremely welcome, Larry!

<SteveS> I was in high school. I have several copies, including the free one that came with the RW computer game.

<Treehugge> I guess I was about 15.

<Nesssus> I must have been about 13 or so and I still have my copy, if a little worse for wear now

<Akatsukam> Probably around 25, Nesssus, and I'm on my second copy now; wore out the first.

<Leviathan> I was twelvish. Re-read a couple of dozen times by now.

<Bill1> 16 here and about 4 times

* zem was 11 or 12 - was my first modern sf novel

<django> first read at 12 - now on 3rd copy which has started to fall apart

<Nesssus> is there anyone here who has the first edition where the world rotates in the other direction?

<Tosh> Started SF at 6, but no Niven until my 20s - don't know why

<tonid> I was about 20-21 (7-8 years ago) when I got fascinated by the picture of a Puppeteer in Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestials and decided to get Ringworld - I did it when visiting the UK :). Then I lent the copy to a friend and it disappeared (I had a chance to read it 3-4 times before that) - recently re-ordered it from Amazon and got... 2 copies by mistake - gave one to a friend to start a new Niven fan ;)

<zem> still have the copy :) falling to pieces though, but I don't want to replace it because I like the cover

<bjcooper1> Late teens I think - maybe early 20's, and reread it twice recently

<django> which cover you got zem?

<Akatsukam> Neither copy, I afraid, Nesssus. Didn't start reading Niven until college (as a substitute for studying, alas).

<Gordon> Larry, when was the book signing tour you did with Steven Barnes to publicize Barsoom Project? You signed my copy of RW then and it had been virtually read to death

<zem> django: the Sphere one, with the Ringworld and sun on a black background

<Redflame> I was in my middle 20's the first time I read RW. And I've read it maybe 5 times, if you count listening to it once.

<HarryRedd> Did you get my post from Leslie?

<fithp> substitute for studying, right. I read SF at Cal Tech instead of studying, got kicked out.</p>

<tonid> I started SF with a local writer - Stanislaw Lem - but Larry's books were one of the first SF I read in English and my collection has about 3x more Larry's books than any other author's :)

<krenon> As every bio of you tells us :-)

<SteveS> Here's a thought: Louis describes his career path. He was independently wealthy, and tried several things. Couldn't do science, writing was too much work. Was Larry the same, except he found he likes writing?

<mikeash> I regularly read things instead of studying

<Tosh> Gordon, seem to recall it was ~1990; I didn't go to the signing in Edinburgh -sob

<Leviathan> I suspect Larry took less time making up his mind!

<zem> what post from Leslie?

<fithp> You could grow up civilized, it used to be, if you started Heinlein at age 10. The names may have changed.

<mikeash> I started on Asimov at about that age

<Akatsukam> Don't know if Louis' (apparent) screenwriting is the same as short stories and novels.

<mikeash> didn't find Heinlein until I was about 19, though

<Treehugge> Writing IS hard work, at times.

* TheARM stated on Bob Heinlein at about ten, also JRR Tolkien and Asimov

<django> never could get into Heinlein

<SteveS> Wow, that's late!

<Leviathan> With me it was Bradbury at six. My brother read me "Kaleidoscope" as a bedtime story.

<HarryRedd> I started with Heinlein when the librarian wanted me to read Freddy the Pig.

<Gordon> 1990 sounds about right - I'd probably had the book about ten years by then so I'd have been about 22

<django> started on Clarke at about 8

<zem> ooh - kaleidoscope is my favourite of his

* TheARM wants to learn to typoe proPerlY

<zem> would *not* want to have read it at age six, though :)

<Akatsukam> Heinlein juveniles were probably first, at about 12-13.

<mikeash> I think the first SF-type books I read were CS Lewis

<Nesssus> were starting to drift here a little, back to RINGWORLD, who was your favourite character?

* Redflame thinks the illustration on my *first edition* RW looks like a kinetiscope, which is really weird seeing little pictures of a landscape instead of a landscape form a Birdseye view.

<krenon> Ah

<Gordon> Louis was my favourite

<Nesssus> I think that my own answer is obvious :-)

<Akatsukam> Probably Speaker, Nesssus. I think he could develop more than the others.

<Treehugge> Fav character, Speaker.

<krenon> Other Ringworld art makes it look like that too

<zem> that's the one I have - the kinetiscope one

<bjcooper1> Heinlein at an early age is wonderfully dangerous. I'm a girl, but I wanted to grow up and be Jubal Harshaw (he was so! smart)

<Bill1> Speaker for me

<SteveS> Speaker for me, too. He seemed to get the best lines. :-)

<zem> I like it, though :) nice effect

<Leviathan> Favorite Ringworld character? Speaker almost gets first place with hhis dry wit, but Nessus -- puppeteers in general -- fascinates me.

<HarryRedd> Speaking of Ring WORLD. IF Teela is Tin Man, Speaker is Cowardly Lion and Nessus is scarecrow and Louis is Dorothy, Is HINDMOST THE WIZARD?

<Akatsukam> He did that, too, Steve.

<django> favourite was speaker

* zem liked Louis and speaker about equally

<Nesssus> which character did Larry enjoy creating the most?

<Redflame> Well, Louis, of course! I can relate to a 200 year old rich man who can't figure out what he wants to do with his life than I can an alien or a girl that has never been hurt.

<zem> they got most of the good lines

<tonid> concerning the fav character - difficult question :). Louis was OK but I'd say that Speaker and Nessus were more interesting ;)

<fithp> Yeah, there's a lot of me in Louis Wu.

<krenon> Teela. I wanted to be alone with her <letch>

<bjcooper1> Louis - once more, smart.

<Bill1> lol @Ted

<tonid> I can definitely relate to one thing in Louis - the sabbaticals - sometimes I wish I could go on a sabbatical myself... :)

<Nesssus> next question, would you sleep with your favourite character?

<Akatsukam> After 200 years, though, I think hat Louis is more set in the ways that he doesn't want to go.

<mikeash> especially when they involve a starship...

<django> tonid: amen to that

<Gordon> With Louis? Naaah

* zem would certainly not (:

<Bill1> sleep with a kzin.....sure

<Akatsukam> With Speaker? Get real :)

<fithp> the weirdest still-plausible characters are my favorites. Nessus. Renner's Motie. Harpanet.

<SteveS> I wouldn't, unless I wanted a quick death. :-)

<zem> well, unless it was really cold - then I'd sleep with speaker as long as I made no sudden movements

<HarryRedd> I enjoyed the MOTIES.

<krenon> OT but was Harpanet a take on ARPAnet?

<Leviathan> Er... Define "Sleep with." "Be somnolent in the presence of?" Sure. "Have sex with?" Not a chance!

<tonid> the thing I admire in Speaker most is self-control :)

<django> I liked Nessus more after I read 'soft weapon'

* zem always assumed it was

<Redflame> Yes! I'd sleep with Louis! Well, if my husband let me. Hmm, maybe both!

<Treehugge> I liked the idea of Nessus' secret mission to study the interactions of his crew.

<Nesssus> actually if sleeping was all that was going on, cuddling up to a Kzin might be very cosy

<SteveS> Another thing about Speaker -- who couldn't love a gigantic furry carnivore who likes to have his ears rubbed by beautiful girls.

<django> after reading MKOL I quite fancy an afternoon with a puppeteer....

<Akatsukam> Did "Nessus" chose his appellation with malice aforethought?

<zem> like having your cat join you in bed, only in reverse

<Gordon> Warmer than the artificial kzinti pelt aboard Needle, Nesssus

<mikeash> I think I would be fairly afraid of a 500-pound carnivore that thinks I taste good, no matter how friendly

* Redflame knows that an AMERICAN wrote those questions, and to an AMERICAN "sleeping with" means "to know in the Biblical sense."

<Akatsukam> ?me 's kzin...err, cat, is on the bed now.

<fithp> Nessus (the centaur) was a teacher, remember.

<tonid> I don't think sleeping with a Puppeteer would be a good idea - suppose he felt endangered in the middle of the night when you wanted to give him a hug and you'd feel his hind leg knocking... you know what ;>>>>

<SteveS> Oh yes, my cat, AKA "micro-kzin"... :-)

<Treehugge> Interesting way to commit suicide; make a pass at Ch'mee.

<Nesssus> What was everyone's favourite line or scene in the story?

<Leviathan> I figure, if Speaker thought I was dinner, I'd have no hope anyway, awake or asleep. If he didn't, then I'd be safe as houses.

<Redflame> Django: LOL! I guess you HAD a lovely afternoon with a puppeteer!

<krenon> Was he? But he violated that woman that Hercules had taken.

* zem notes that he proposed the 'sleeping with' question so the American argument fails ;) not that that's not what I meant, of course

<mikeash> well, remember what happened to Louis when he woke Chmeee up in RWE

<Gordon> Fav scene - when Speaker overhears Nessus mention the starseed lure

<Akatsukam> I may be mis-remembering, but didn't Nessus also try to carry off Deianera?

<krenon> Right!

* zem loved the bit where speaker took the variable sword off Louis

<Treehugge> Agreed, Gordon...very subtle and powerful.

<fithp> Sorry, I've got the wrong centaur. There was a Chiron puppeteer on the homeworld...a teacher.

<bjcooper1> Sleeping question - I suspect that after 200 years Louis would have some nice experiences to impart --

<krenon> He "slept with" her and Herc killed him

<django> krenon: breeding for luck = violating teela?

<HarryRedd> A CONVENTION FOR PRIVATE DETECTIVES! (The EYE STORM.)

<Redflame> Well, since my LAST re-reading only got me through the first few chapters, my fav has to come from those: the description of Teela's party outfit is my favorite, the flaming red hair!

<Leviathan> Favorite scene: When I realized what Fist-of-God was. I went "Wow!!!!"

<django> favourite line/scene: Teela "the wing's gone"

<krenon> Ah.

<Leviathan> Favorite line: The dialogue between Louis and Speaker when they're first encountering the Ringworld, and trying to communicate with its inhabitants.

<bjcooper1> Favorite part -- I loved the first descriptions of Ringworlds, and the time before they left when Louis tried to comfort Nessus on the lawn

<Nesssus> My favourite was the scene in the garden on the puppeteer homeworld and the stepping disks

<tonid> hehe I liked the bit when Teela came with her new boyfriend :)))

<Akatsukam> My favorite line -- "When Kzin gets too crowded..." "You attack the nearest human world."

<zem> the extended description of plateau trance

<HarryRedd> Larry, one question not answered. How do you aim a Solar Laser at something incoming in th4e exact plane of the Ringworld?

<krenon> Nessus, catching Louis and Teela at it and saying "No known species copulates as often as you" or similar.

<Leviathan> "Parrots! Giant parrots, bred just for the purpose. They're lungs are too big to fly, so they sit on hilltops and scream at each other!"

<mikeash> I always assumed you just hoped it wasn't in the exact plane

<zem> didn't teela do that in engineers?

<Treehugge> I also liked Louis' realization of the age gap between himself and Teela, after his exercise joke.

<SteveS> Speaker: "Excuse me."

* Nesssus is glad that Krenon is letching again <g>

<Leviathan> "...if not for your helpful suggestions, Louis Wu, I would despair.

<HarryRedd> Favorite scene in RW is when Louis is on KZIN in the Hunting park!

<fithp> You can't use the sun-powered laser on something in the Ringworld plane. It's a flaw.

* Redflame has been wondering how a puppeteer can have claws and hooves at the same time, since claws and hooves are both modified toes.

<bjcooper1> Another favorite was the description of the eye storm

<django> hence fist of god

* zem nods at django

<Akatsukam> On Earth, they are.

<SteveS> If it's used to attack, it's a claw, otherwise it's a hoof.

<HarryRedd> That DOES explain FIST OF GOD and the EYE STORM. I would have thought the ENGINEERS would plan better than that though. Maybe the system went down?

<Treehugge> Objects in the plane had to have another defense.....damaged by Prill's people?

<Nesssus> if fist-of-god was coming in at a different angle, would the sun-laser have been a good deterrent?

<tonid> zem: I'm confused ;) (last re-reading was one right after the other - but I believe that Teela met her boyfriend in RW and stayed on RW with him...)

<SteveS> Right, tonid.

<Treehugge> Tilt the RW so the plane shifts...?

<django> I would have thought the engineers would have thought that anything in the miniscule part of the sky they couldn't hit with the laser could be taken care of manually

<Akatsukam> If the REs saw it from far enough out, yes, Nesssus.

<fithp> A hoof is one toenail. Puppeteers kept the other toes as claws.

* Redflame has been envisioning a pair of hooves in the back, like cloven hooves on deer, and a single claw in the front, repeating the "three part symmetry" of the legs on a PP.

<django> considering that in Throne they were examining things in the cometary halo...

<Nesssus> Nice hominids don't do Rishathra ........

<Akatsukam> Remember, the protectors thought that they and their get would be around forever.

<Redflame> Ah, just ONE toe is a hoof.

<Treehugge> Maybe as the RW spins, it's also supposed to turn?

<HarryRedd> Boiling the front of an incoming Asteroid would produce a reaction slowing it's incoming direction.

* django does not consider himself a 'nice hominid'

<tonid> HarryRedd: I'd say that the probability of something coming exactly in the plane would be soooo small that they disregarded it - the composed probability of a large enough object coming in the plane is minimal...

<Gordon> I also liked the part where Louis climbed ten flights of stairs in the floating castle, then later found that Teela tripped on the bottom step and discovered the stairs worked like an escalator

* zem thinks it'd wobble too much if it did that

<fithp> re objects in the plane: maybe you can induce a super thermal laser effect in the exhaust from an attitude jet.

<Treehugge> We do too, Nessus! :)~

<zem> but I could be wrong

<Akatsukam> Right, Harry, and in orbital mechanics, you just have to change an object's velocity, not destroy it.

<Treehugge> Maybe Fist-0f-God was thrown.

<zem> by the puppeteers?

<Nesssus> Treehug fancies Speaker, Treehug fancies speaker :-)

<Treehugge> No, I fancy his wives!

<HarryRedd> Re Attitude Jets: That could work but the Puls timing would be critical and have to be balanced.

<SteveS> What about space surprises? In the Outsiders scenes, who could have known that Triton would have pink ice?

<Akatsukam> If Tunguska had arrived five hours earlier, it wouldn't have hit St. Petersburg, it would have missed Earth completely.

* zem 's main question was how the protectors managed to develop scrith

* Treehugge smiling and covered with band-aids.

<tonid> PS I always wondered how the puppeteers walk with three legs - it's difficult to maintain balance with three legs - their walking style must be interesting ;)

<Akatsukam> Elegantly, zem :)

<Leviathan> I don't see protectors leaving things to chance. I do see them using gravity lenses to re-direct the solar laser around the Ringworld to take out stuff behind the plane.

<zem> LOL

<zem> indeed

<TheARM> me wonders what happens if one head of a puppeteer fancies the other head instead of other puppeteers

<django> fithp: how much Ringworld science was there first? as opposed to what was filled in afterward...

<Gordon> Like a one-legged man on a pair of crutches? (Shivith?)

<tonid> TheARM: ROTFL :)

<HarryRedd> Hmmm, that would put FIST of GOD AFTER the Super Conductor Plague.

<Leviathan> ARM, remember that the heads are not independent, they're just ayastocks.

<zem> if they had artificial gravity they wouldn't have spun the Ringworld

<Redflame> Well, I think that HUMANS need to loosen up their attitudes about sex, well, but then, maybe they need to be tightened. I can't imagine having looser attitudes. Surely there are people on earth who aren't as liberal sexually as Louis and Teela. Maybe they would have a problem with rishathra.

<Treehugge> I had assumed what was filled in later was not as advanced as the tech that built it.

<fithp> I've seen studies of a puppeteer's gait. They were adapted from a three-legged dog's.

<tonid> TheARM: remember there's only one brain and it's in between the two ;) it's like if your hands fancied one another ;)))

<Akatsukam> It's probably more similar to an insect crawling that a vertebrate walking, tonid.

<mikeash> zem, spinning gravity won't fail, but with artificial gravity if you have a power failure everybody dies

<zem> true

<tonid> Akatsukam: but an insect has 6 legs, not 3 - it can raise 3 and not lose balance :)

<Gordon> Not if they're all on the same side

<Nesssus> actually, I think it would be the reverse, the younger generations would want to try new things, while 200-year olds would not want to take the risk

<zem> and protectors did favor brutally simple mechanisms

<mikeash> my hands do fancy each other...

<TheARM> so it would be narcissism?

<fithp> how much Ringworld science...? I've been upgrading for thirty years. They keep changing the universe on me.

<Redflame> PP walking: A hop in the walk would be nice. Maybe the back hoof is larger to accommodate not only kicking, but more balance.

<HarryRedd> ARM LOL!

<bjcooper1> Sorry to bug out early - got to go. Fun. Thx for reminding, Carol! :-)

<Leviathan> The protectors have demonstrated ability to make gravity lenses. But why use a system like that -- dependent on technology and liable to break down for surface gravity when they can just spin the darned thing and let inertia do that work for free.

<Gordon> Seeya bj

<HarryRedd> ADIOS BJ

<Akatsukam> Ciao, bj.

<HarryRedd> Gravity Lenses for LASER USE Leviathan

<zem> no, Brennan made the gravity lens in protector. I can't remember a native protector building one

<tonid> Redflame: a hop would be good for running, but for slow walking it's a bit difficult - even if the rear hoof is wider :)

<SteveS> So, what were some of the biggest Known Space-related science surprises over the years?

<django> brb - parental duties

<Gordon> Mercury rotating

<Nesssus> Next discussion question: Ringworld-centric phraseology like "spill mountain" what other examples can people remember

<Akatsukam> Ah, but who says that they "walk", tonid?

<HarryRedd> But they sure could dance a waltz. /:-)

* Redflame has seen bunnies walk quite slowly.

<Leviathan> I don't suppose that Brennan could do what the Engineer Protectors could not.

<krenon> Flup. Lovely word

<fithp> Bye Brenda.

<Akatsukam> "Spinward" and "antispinward", surely, Nesssus.

<zem> spinward

<tonid> Akatsukam: I can't imagine a creature not being able to walk slowly and only run...

<Nesssus> but flup is just mud after all

<HarryRedd> I suspect that Brennan could. After all, he started Smarter and with a bigger Database.

<Nesssus> anyone fancy a flup bath? <g>

<Leviathan> Shadow Squares!

<Gordon> The Arch

<Leviathan> The Arch!

<Treehugge> Rishathra. :)

<Redflame> tasp!

<krenon> Imagine selling flup to the fithp? Different universes.

<Akatsukam> Kangaroos, tonid? They walk, true, but with an almost entirely different mechanism from hopping.

<Treehugge> shadow-square wire, as opposed to Sinclair mon.

<Redflame> So, what ARE The medicinal qualities of a flup bath? Good for the skin?

<tonid> Leviathan: remember that Knazol/Greenberg was able to think of things Knazol would not think of - Brennan would be in the same situation - knowledge brought by the human race helped him think of things in a different way a native Pak would

<HarryRedd> FUEL!

<Gordon> That's another of my favourite scenes - when they see the Arch for the first time

<tonid> Akatsukam: true, you got me here :)

<Leviathan> (Right about when RWT came out, McDonalds was advertising a burger called the "Arch Deluxe" I got both for a friend who was a Niven fan for his birthday, and his first words on seeing the sandwich with the book was "That's what I thought of too!"

<Treehugge> Interesting that the natives in some of the RW mistook what flup was.

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